I Gank Children because I'm Cruel.

Had a convo with some guy in a c2/HS/C4

TLDR: I come across some Procurers and a Miasmos "why you violence my boats?" tears happen. 

Brief overview of what happened. I jump into some C2 down the chain with my scout legion. I see a raven and 5 procurers on scan. No force field or towers.

Sadly my timing couldn't be worse, my daughter walks into my computer room and asks me for breakfast. Not wanting to starve my offspring to murder some miners, I decide to be a good parent. 15+ minutes later, I'm expecting these miners to be gone, nope. The raven is gone, but all the Procurers are still on scan.

I think to myself, they must know the sig is there, how could they not?! Nope still just mining away. Must be a trap. I mean who in their right mind continues doing PVE long after a new sig is on scan? It can only be bait.

Well I'm not a pilot that doesn't bite bait, so I decide to not go in with a close range gang. I'll commit with 2 bombers, that should be enough to knock out some miners.

I get my fleet up, I get my bombers on the hole ready to jump in if my Legion gets unclocked by a rock. I warp my Legion to grid, book mark one of their jet cans and wait for the bookmark to populate in the corp bookmarks.

While I'm waiting I figure I can just warp to my scout at 30 to start my bombing run.

I jump my bombers in and fleet warp both of them to my scout. The second I land, I start my approach. Bomb 1 dropped, Bomb 2 dropped.. Miasmos goes pop, all the jet cans go pop. The procurers aren't even in armor. Ugg, those things are tuff!.

Since I'm triple boxing I only manage to keep 1 of the procurers pointed. Bad I know, but I was really thinking a crap ton of stuff was going to uncloak next to me so I kept range and didn't fully commit. My legion was actually uncloaked by one of my bombers, but I never targeted anything with it. I'm not about to lose another scanning legion to such an obvious trap.

All but one gets away and I pound on it with two bombers. That thing took forever to die! I realize if that guy just stayed on grid with 5 procurers his drones would have smelted me.

Even with me essentially letting most of his ships go (not entirely intentionally) this guy wants to pull some kind of talk in local moral high ground bull shit with me.

I think at the end of the day when two peoples sandcastles in this sand box collide, both get dirty.  

[ 2014.07.13 15:25:39 ] Bloodstone Mac > Well, I guess there are PvPers....who actually fight and have fun....then their are ganking children who do it to be cruel and ensure destruction of things that do nothing for them.  Thanks guys.  Glad to know which people Im dealing with here.
[ 2014.07.13 15:27:02 ] Longinius Spear > Check my KB. YOu will see I could have killed every last one of you and your pods. I was being sporting. The Legion didn't even lock and I let most of you go. so hush
[ 2014.07.13 15:27:28 ] Bloodstone Mac > lol...destroying containers of Ore is being sporting? lol
[ 2014.07.13 15:27:35 ] Bloodstone Mac > Ok :P
[ 2014.07.13 15:27:35 ] Longinius Spear > The bombs did that
[ 2014.07.13 15:27:49 ] Bloodstone Mac > Well, have fun
[ 2014.07.13 15:28:00 ] Longinius Spear > I'm down for some pvp if you are. I only killed 2 ships
[ 2014.07.13 15:29:35 ] Bloodstone Mac > Sorry, Im not personally into gank tactics.  I like real fights.  I dont go after defensless ships...and dont really respect those who do.  I understand its part of the game, so Im not complaining....just saying thats how I am.  Have a nice day guys...
[ 2014.07.13 15:30:49 ] Longinius Spear > You had drones. you chose to run. All your ships combined could have wiped the floor with me and Lomax. Two bombers vs 10 light drones? It is you sir who chose not to pvp. You had a chance, you chose to run
[ 2014.07.13 15:31:24 ] Bloodstone Mac > lol..ok
[ 2014.07.13 15:32:47 ] Bloodstone Mac > I dont think that hitting miners is PvP....but ok
[ 2014.07.13 15:33:04 ] Longinius Spear > you know those drones aren't just for show?
[ 2014.07.13 15:33:06 ] Bloodstone Mac > I figured you would
[ 2014.07.13 15:34:15 ] Longinius Spear > I could see your point of view if i went in there with a hick, and 3 T3's.. but I chose not to. I chose to try a bombing run which somewhat failed btw.. I let all but 1 go. The legion never even engaged.
[ 2014.07.13 15:35:09 ] Longinius Spear > you got off lightly and now your sad I didn't punish you more? if I knew this would have been your attatude, i should have just come with the T3s
[ 2014.07.13 15:35:40 ] Longinius Spear > You should be thanking me. That sig was on scan for more than 15 mins. I would have kiled you 2 mins after I hoped in but I had to make my daughter breakfast
[ 2014.07.13 15:36:01 ] Longinius Spear > You had a daughter breakfast timer going. Still you failed. This is a slap on the wrist
[ 2014.07.13 15:36:53 ] Bloodstone Mac > Whatever you say man....I dont really care.  Ive already said my piece.
[ 2014.07.13 15:37:54 ] Longinius Spear > thats exactly it. Yo uhave "said" you havn't done anything. Your sitting there in your pos crying about no pvp, when I'm here to bring it. I didn't pod you, you have ships, pilots.. yet you just sit there and cry that I killed only 2 of your 7 ships.
[ 2014.07.13 15:38:02 ] Bloodstone Mac > Eve has two kinds of players....those who look for fights....those who run around trying to gank people.  Both are viable play styles....and in WHs you obviously expect to run more into the second one.
[ 2014.07.13 15:38:35 ] Bloodstone Mac > Im not crying at all actually.  The ships were small and cheap....so that doesnt matter at all
[ 2014.07.13 15:38:48 ] Longinius Spear > if it doesn't matter at all why are we talking about it?
[ 2014.07.13 15:39:02 ] Bloodstone Mac > Im simply calmly telling you the difference between you and I.
[ 2014.07.13 15:39:21 ] Bloodstone Mac > And I wished you well, said to have a nice day.  You are the one who decided to continue arguing.
[ 2014.07.13 15:39:44 ] Longinius Spear > Well, if i'm not fighting, i might as well interact with my fellow players :)
[ 2014.07.13 15:40:05 ] Bloodstone Mac > Yet your the one saying Im crying.....all Im doing is talking actually.
[ 2014.07.13 15:40:54 ] Longinius Spear > saying some kind of "moral high ground' comment right off the back is really lame btw. Its considered tears. I gank, i fight, and I'm often ganked myself.
[ 2014.07.13 15:41:01 ] Bloodstone Mac > And please dont patronize someone, acting like you "nicely" let ships escape....no one is that stupid.
[ 2014.07.13 15:41:22 ] Longinius Spear > I didn't say I intentionally did it. :)
[ 2014.07.13 15:41:31 ] Bloodstone Mac > Yes, you gank.  And I pointed that out.  I dont have respect for the game style...and that is all I said.
[ 2014.07.13 15:41:51 ] Longinius Spear > is that really fair?
[ 2014.07.13 15:42:00 ] Longinius Spear > i mean I could say the very same thing
[ 2014.07.13 15:42:08 ] Bloodstone Mac > Yes, it is fair.
[ 2014.07.13 15:42:20 ] Bloodstone Mac > Say what?
[ 2014.07.13 15:42:23 ] Longinius Spear > well i don't respect your game style.. so there
[ 2014.07.13 15:42:27 ] Longinius Spear > see how dumb it sounds?
[ 2014.07.13 15:42:30 ] Bloodstone Mac > I dont come into your area and gank you....
[ 2014.07.13 15:43:19 ] Bloodstone Mac > It would sound quite stupid, considering I didnt agress you.
[ 2014.07.13 15:43:48 ] Longinius Spear > Ganking is an important danger factor for wormhole space. Just like harvesting rare rocks. The reason why everyone doesn't do it after the sleepers are dead isn't because they simply don't know how warp to the anoms.
[ 2014.07.13 15:43:57 ] Longinius Spear > They don't do it because its dangerous
[ 2014.07.13 15:44:25 ] Longinius Spear > By the interaction we just had, we are keeping rare rocks rare.
[ 2014.07.13 15:44:39 ] Longinius Spear > We are a viable economic factor.
[ 2014.07.13 15:45:01 ] Bloodstone Mac > Whatever you think.
[ 2014.07.13 15:45:36 ] Longinius Spear > Think about it for a second. If no one ganked anyone, how much money could get get for all this spud ABCs?
[ 2014.07.13 15:45:54 ] Bloodstone Mac > Same amount I would get if you werent here actually.
[ 2014.07.13 15:46:22 ] Bloodstone Mac > ANd if I was only after making ISK....thats too easy....cause you can make more mining outside of here.
[ 2014.07.13 15:46:35 ] Longinius Spear > Nope. The reason the price is so high is the difficulty to get them.
[ 2014.07.13 15:46:55 ] Bloodstone Mac > Its not difficult to get the stuff in here
[ 2014.07.13 15:47:11 ] Bloodstone Mac > and 98% of what you get in here when refined...can be obtained in High Sec.  so nice try
[ 2014.07.13 15:47:12 ] Longinius Spear > I suspect mining is an afterthough for you, you might make much more in this hole from just PI
[ 2014.07.13 15:47:39 ] Bloodstone Mac > I just run WH to help train pilots.  I dont "make money" really after its all said and done.
[ 2014.07.13 15:48:01 ] Longinius Spear > You are here to play the game right?
[ 2014.07.13 15:48:54 ] Bloodstone Mac > Of course.  And I fully expect to run into gankers.  That doesnt mean I have to lower myself to their play style however.
[ 2014.07.13 15:49:23 ] Longinius Spear > "lower yourself" there you go with this moral high ground thing again. Like ganking someone isn't some how just as viable as shooting at rocks
[ 2014.07.13 15:49:40 ] Longinius Spear > I don't say that about your activities
[ 2014.07.13 15:49:45 ] Bloodstone Mac > lol...I already said it was viable...read your chat log please
[ 2014.07.13 15:49:47 ] Longinius Spear > I'm respetful
[ 2014.07.13 15:50:22 ] Bloodstone Mac > All I said, is I dont have any respect for it.
[ 2014.07.13 15:51:12 ] Bloodstone Mac > And Im sorry sir, but I dont care what your reasoning is...most people respect PvPers...those who fight others in open PvP.  they dont actually respect someone for their ability to gank non-combat ships.  Think about it.
[ 2014.07.13 15:51:28 ] Bloodstone Mac > You dont sit there and talk about how great someone is because they can hit a miasmos....
[ 2014.07.13 15:51:32 ] Bloodstone Mac > :P
[ 2014.07.13 15:51:57 ] Longinius Spear > Did you see me warp on to grid?
[ 2014.07.13 15:52:14 ] Longinius Spear > Did you see the sig show up on  your overview?
[ 2014.07.13 15:52:28 ] Longinius Spear > Did you see my legion uncloak for just a second before he found your fleet?
[ 2014.07.13 15:52:40 ] Longinius Spear > Did you see the 2 bombers uncloak as they entered your wormhole?
[ 2014.07.13 15:53:00 ] Longinius Spear > Every answer is NO. and if its not, you're just bad at not being ganked.
[ 2014.07.13 15:53:26 ] Longinius Spear > Each of those No answers was me being good at what I do and you being bad at what you did.
[ 2014.07.13 15:53:35 ] Bloodstone Mac > Your obviously not listening to what is being said.  You just want to argue.  Have fun...like I said, Ive said what I have to say.  The rest is you trying to validate your activities and what?  force me to agree that what you do is somehow "great PvP"?
[ 2014.07.13 15:53:38 ] Bloodstone Mac > lol
[ 2014.07.13 15:53:53 ] Longinius Spear > At the end 99% of what occurred was me not making mistakes you making multiple
[ 2014.07.13 15:54:38 ] Bloodstone Mac > Anyway, have better things to do.  Congradulations on your expert PvP tactics and kill on low level industrial pilots.  superb job...your a god
[ 2014.07.13 15:54:45 ] Bloodstone Mac > Hopefully, that is what you need to hear.
[ 2014.07.13 15:55:07 ] Longinius Spear > Is it as noble as 1v1 pistols at dawn? nope. But its a hunt, i'm a hunter. you are the prey. Thats the relations ship.. to take that away makes us both look bad.
[ 2014.07.13 15:55:25 ] Bloodstone Mac > No, just you.  But think what you like


I'm a god!

T3 Ships and Sub-system creation is an ISK Sink

UPDATE: 11/4 None of the below information is useful anymore. Please stop reading it. Or else~!

TLDR: I go super autistic on T3 Manufacturing profitability.  Conclusion T3s are created by people who don’t care about profits.

Disclaimer *** If you don’t give a fuck about money, your time and building stuff just makes you hard, do not open my spread sheet. Go about your business and continue doing whatever you like. EVE’s a sand box, sometimes people just like to eat the sand.***

I’m sorry to haven’t posted in a little bit since the DUCKS disaster, been doing ‘stuff’.

One of the stuffs I have been doing is this spread sheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f8giD3BSHbQGC-s6AW06m-U0AUeusyufUhHtTfd6XOc/edit?usp=sharing

Before you open that up and say to yourself, “Dear god Spear WTF have you done”  read the why.

WHY:

I like math. I don’t know why I like math, but I use it every day at work and it just gets me going. My family would often sit around the Thanks Giving table and try and figure out random math problems.

Example; If you took up the value of every item in a room. Say kitchen, gave an estimate on its value. Sink, table, microwave, refrigerator, pots, pans whatever.. Then totaled that estimated value into dollars, what would it be. Then take that total, and find out how many quarters it was. Then how much would that many quarters weigh? Then if you could replace all the items with quarters could the room support that much weight? Yes? Why and show your math.

Shit like that was common as a kid. This has lead me to a life of think numbers are recreation.

QUESTION:

The question was asked. (by someone, maybe by me talking to myself) Is EVE T3 manufacturing “profitable”.

Let me define what “Profitable” means before I continue. Profitability to me, is defined by you acts resulting in a finical outcome that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Example: Lemonade stand – 1 Lemon+Water+Sugar+Cups = 10 cups of Lemonade. The sum of all parts before you sell all 10 cups must be less than what you sell all the cups for. Or you are simply wasting your time/money. Simple right? You would think.

In EVE people add the “cause I want to” factor into nearly every manufacturing situation. This essentially ruins it for the rest of us. I have found that T3 manufacturing is one of those things. To the tune of trillions of ISK lost because people don’t understand that the sum of what they are doing, should be greater than sum of its parts.

Explanation:

So an explanation of my spread sheet.

Well my data isn’t 100% that’s my first problem. EVE Central which for those of you living under an asteroid is a website that lets you look up the actual in game price of an item and the system in which its sold. They do this with some kind of EVEmon player data scraping  or some other wizardry.  The point is, its live data for the most part. Often is hours old at worst, days. Still really good.

Well these wizards at EVE Central have provided an API that people can use out of game to make super cool spread sheets. This is the data I’m using. Sadly each time I call on that data, there is a chance Google Docks goes full retard and can’t figure it out. The way you fix it, is change the broken/Error formula to something else, then back again. This sorts out the spread sheet temporarily. (I have a /r/EVE ask out there to figure out how to avoid it, no luck as of yet)

With Data issue known, you need to take my conclusion with that grain of salt. 

Goal:

“How many T3 Units and what kind, do you need to construct to exceed the materials used to create them”?

I’m not talking about just manufacturing materials. I factored skills, POS costs, reoccurring fuel costs, manufacturing materials, research materials and compared them to how much these things sell for at the best trade hub in the game. Jita.

FUN RIGH?! 

Well, I thought so. 

Points: 

1^st thing I want to point out, NEVER sell to buy orders unless you give no fucks about profitability. You lose millions per unit.

2^nd  If one of you mother fucking mouth breathers says to me “I can make it more profitable if I mine it myself” I will punch you in the god damn neck!  Materials and your time have a value. Do not forget this EVER! If the materials it takes to make something are worth more than the final product, you should not fucking MAKE THAT! If the sum of all parts used is less than what you can make by doing any other activity, do THAT activity instead!

3^rd Even with my lapses in data, where an item isn’t being sold at Jita at time of the data pull. IF there was some value other than 0 in it, that number beyond 0 would simply remove even more money from its profitability outcomes.

4^th The only data that can’t be wrong for this process, and it’s the only data is consistently right, is what people are willing to pay for your hard work and product.You can fudge some of the things going into a cake, but if the cake looks/tastes like shit at the end, you dun goofed.

Conclusion:

The conclusion I came to is based on available market sources, every aspect of T3 construction POST reverse engineering is bad.

Like really, really bad, like I should be mining Veldspar with a venture bad.  It’s so bad that simply NOT doing it, is saving you money, I don’t mean it doesn’t pay well, I mean you are throwing money down the toilet by performing this action is costing you money.

What I did find out is, you should really just do buy orders, because based on the volume of transactions that occur between people selling to buy orders the amount of times it happens, you could not only save massive money, but you could actually turn a profit.

If you like spread sheets and like what I have done. Share this with your friends. It’s an awesome way to troll them.

“O I see you like building T3’s and subsystems! Did you know that, you would need to create 300 units of _______ T3 subsystem in order to even pay for that months POS fuel?”

“Let alone over 1000 units sold, to pay for the POS/Skills/Fuel it took to actually make those items?”

"Making ____ ? I see. Ya.. that's a negative number. If you just didn't make it, took those items to the market and sold them. You may profit by your time spent."

You can be the star(turd in the punch bowl) of the PVE party, get cracking!  


***UPDATE! ***  After a very heated discussion on /r/EVE -- I have figured out the mystery. 

The T3 market is supported by people who seem to remove research costs from their profit projection. 

Here are some of my favorite quotes.  .

 "Your spreadsheet is complete garbage." Bearhobag

"Assuming you're selling to sell orders, your profit margins are anywhere from 5%-65%, and that's assuming you're building the unprofitable subs as well." ---/u/Kantastic

"Or, you know, you can just use EVEiph, and realise that your spreadsheet is complete and utter garbage" "All T3 hulls are profitable by 15-25%. Half of the T3 subs are indeed negative, but the rest is very profitable. Check your numbers. Or dont. I'll continue producing lokis at a profit."Fuel costs are nothing, and initial investment cannot be used since it's shared with whatever other industry things you have going on.

.--- /u/Kujara 

When asked to factor in the costs of researching the BPC and using only 1 or 2 of the potential outcomes into his profit projection this was his response -- "Well of course not, I didn't post any of them."-- /u/Kantastic

"Hai Longinus! Don't think I've ever seen you link any of your stuff on the subreddit before. I look forward to the indy butthurt that shall show up within the hour. BTW This is Mike." -- /u/foundryguy

Indi butthurt is right! I figured I would be hailed as a hero, a redeemer of lost causes... NOPE. Even with faced with massive evidence counter to their opinion and given a forum to voice their objections.. we get "Your spreadsheet is garbage". 

One guy was so random and useless that he even went so far as to say he makes 15 billion in profits a month!

I gave him a simple "Mad Lib" style fill in the blank.  

_______ (END Product Sale Price) - _______ (expenses/research costs) = ____ Profits

Nope, he couldn't fill it in because if he did.. He might find to achieve a 15 billion a month profit projection with say each subsystem costing around 40m (that's being very generous)  he would need to turn over 3,750 units a month. 

This would give him an on hand stock of T3 subsystems of around 150 billion.

O well, never cast your pearls to swine.