Monday, March 3, 2014

The Sandbox that bites

     TLDR: Baby Dady ganks some guy, and he rages. Baby Dady forwards the convo to alliance, cause why not.. I decide to open a convo and explain ourselves.

    BD's video of the experience.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:13:19 ] Longinius Spear > Hi there!
    [ 2014.03.03 07:13:27 ] Longinius Spear > Not sure if you know who i am or not
    [ 2014.03.03 07:13:46 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Your name sounds like one of the TTP hosts
    [ 2014.03.03 07:13:50 ] Longinius Spear > Yes
    [ 2014.03.03 07:14:12 ] Longinius Spear > I was reading your convo with BD
    [ 2014.03.03 07:14:21 ] Longinius Spear > got some stuff I could clear up for you
    [ 2014.03.03 07:14:42 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Thats nice, and apparently you thought that me getting mad was grounds to start griefing me with bounties?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:14:55 ] Longinius Spear > Thats not me
    [ 2014.03.03 07:15:01 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Well, it's your alliance
    [ 2014.03.03 07:15:07 ] Longinius Spear > BD sent your convo to the alliance
    [ 2014.03.03 07:15:13 ] Longinius Spear > And its not my alliance
    [ 2014.03.03 07:15:20 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > How very considerate of him.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:15:20 ] Longinius Spear > I am just a member
    [ 2014.03.03 07:15:40 ] Longinius Spear > Well anyway..
    [ 2014.03.03 07:15:47 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Good to know you're a member of such a stand-up alliance. /sarcasm
    [ 2014.03.03 07:15:50 ] Longinius Spear > What I want to clear up is this
    [ 2014.03.03 07:15:54 ] Longinius Spear > clear up
    [ 2014.03.03 07:16:13 ] Longinius Spear > Tallon Darkwyrm > But really, I thought you do like, fair combats, not just gank people and pod them for no reason
    [ 2014.03.03 07:16:24 ] Longinius Spear > 1st, we kill everyone
    [ 2014.03.03 07:16:31 ] Longinius Spear > pods too
    [ 2014.03.03 07:16:44 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Way to make wormhole space accessible to everyone
    [ 2014.03.03 07:16:51 ] Longinius Spear > Tallon Darkwyrm > something about haikus to spare the pods
    [ 2014.03.03 07:17:02 ] Longinius Spear > This was a SUSU thing, BD is no longer in SUSU
    [ 2014.03.03 07:17:27 ] Longinius Spear > it was also dependent on the person doing the killing
    [ 2014.03.03 07:17:48 ] Longinius Spear > often times, depending on how hard or easy a target was... would determin if we offered a Hiaku
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:07 ] Longinius Spear > Tallon Darkwyrm > kind of a dick move to pod for no reason
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:14 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > I don't get you people. You go about preaching about how great wormhole space is and how you want ot get more people involved, then you just go around killing everyone and podding them when they try to "get involved"
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:18 ] Longinius Spear > PVP is not a dick move
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:27 ] Longinius Spear > WOrmhole space is great
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:31 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > You can't even call what happened "PVP"
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:32 ] Longinius Spear > fighting is great
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:37 ] Longinius Spear > hunting is great
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:44 ] Longinius Spear > Wormholes are great
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:49 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > He jumped in on me while i was picking up goods and pretty one-sidedly popped me
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:54 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Thats not PVP
    [ 2014.03.03 07:18:57 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Thats just dumb
    [ 2014.03.03 07:19:02 ] Longinius Spear > You're a player, and he is a player?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:19:27 ] Longinius Spear > I know that sounds over simplifying it a bit
    [ 2014.03.03 07:20:08 ] Longinius Spear > but honestly, when you undock or even log in, you are agreeing to out wit not just out smart your opponent
    [ 2014.03.03 07:20:54 ] Longinius Spear > I'm trying to explain our point of view.. i'm not trying to fight. Just explain
    [ 2014.03.03 07:21:06 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > You know, it took me two hours to find an entrance to that particular hole with my planets in it. And in about two seconds, your douche bag friend, for no other reason then his own personal gratification pretty mucuh ruined my night.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:21:24 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > How you find this justified is just beyond my scope of mind
    [ 2014.03.03 07:21:28 ] Longinius Spear > I'm not sure how he ruined your night
    [ 2014.03.03 07:21:35 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > ...
    [ 2014.03.03 07:21:39 ] Longinius Spear > do you think losing isk is ruining your night?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:21:57 ] Longinius Spear > Kill: Longinius Spear (Falcon)  Kill: Longinius Spear (Capsule - Genolution 'Auroral' 197-variant)
    [ 2014.03.03 07:22:01 ] Longinius Spear > That just happen3ed to me
    [ 2014.03.03 07:22:07 ] Longinius Spear > it was 1 v 20
    [ 2014.03.03 07:22:18 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Congratulations?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:22:22 ] Longinius Spear > do you think they ruined my night?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:23:35 ] Longinius Spear > I consider all pvp engagements to be a gift, even if they out number me, the point is, they faught... they undocked.. they tried
    [ 2014.03.03 07:23:35 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > You go looking for PVP because you enjoy it. I think PVP is the most one sided, unbalanced and stupid thing in this game. He ruined my night, and now your alliance is trolling me after I mouthed off to him for it.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:24:09 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > You know, the flaw in your argument there is the fact that I had no way of fighting back against him
    [ 2014.03.03 07:24:28 ] Longinius Spear > do you think my falcon can fight 20 people?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:24:39 ] Longinius Spear > I had no way of fighting back
    [ 2014.03.03 07:24:59 ] Longinius Spear > I shouldn't have been in that situation.. but i was out smarted.. out witted..
    [ 2014.03.03 07:25:32 ] Longinius Spear > Those 20 people who killed me had a victory... I made THEIR night
    [ 2014.03.03 07:25:55 ] Longinius Spear > do you see how this is a give and take video game.. sometimes you are the winner, some times you are the loser
    [ 2014.03.03 07:26:05 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Oh yeah, I bet I made his night with his whopping 5 mill drops form my indy wreck and the glorious loot from my pod. OH WAIT
    [ 2014.03.03 07:26:08 ] Longinius Spear > Its part of interacting with people on a human level
    [ 2014.03.03 07:26:14 ] Longinius Spear > Its not about the money
    [ 2014.03.03 07:26:26 ] Longinius Spear > its the human interaction
    [ 2014.03.03 07:26:32 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Oh yes because podding someone is exactly what I want to get out of this game.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:26:34 ] Longinius Spear > its this.. what we are doing right now
    [ 2014.03.03 07:26:55 ] Longinius Spear > Its a sandbox.. you can choose to have whatever goals you want.. i'm doing my best to describe mine
    [ 2014.03.03 07:26:59 ] Longinius Spear > and part of what BD does
    [ 2014.03.03 07:27:11 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > You think I'm having fun right now? I just had to drain my LP to replace all of my implants.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:27:38 ] Longinius Spear > you obviously don't agree, but could you at least accept the fact that we have different play styles and that one is no better or "dumber" than the other?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:27:42 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Jesus man, you guys get off on destroying other people's hard work
    [ 2014.03.03 07:27:53 ] Longinius Spear > no, not at all
    [ 2014.03.03 07:28:09 ] Longinius Spear > EVE shouldn't be a job.. no matter how you play it
    [ 2014.03.03 07:28:43 ] Longinius Spear > EVE is fun, its interacting with people.. just like we are doing now
    [ 2014.03.03 07:29:18 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > I don't mind interacting in this way, but I don't consider an impersonal podding and a trip back to highsec "interacting"
    [ 2014.03.03 07:29:28 ] Longinius Spear > Its why I do a podcast and write a blog.. its why BD flys around killing everything he comes across. Because the desire to interact with people and bing a level of danger that only we can provide
    [ 2014.03.03 07:30:38 ] Longinius Spear > You shouldn't have been there. And if it couldn't be helped, then you should have limited your exposure.. wormhole space a great deal to offer, but its obviously dangerous
    [ 2014.03.03 07:30:56 ] Longinius Spear > I think its the danger that people like
    [ 2014.03.03 07:31:00 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > You just dont take into account the fact that running around and killing people out of their own wormholes really makes them think twice about coming back
    [ 2014.03.03 07:31:04 ] Longinius Spear > I think its the fear of people like BD that brings them back
    [ 2014.03.03 07:31:22 ] Longinius Spear > DO you often run away from challenges that are hard?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:31:42 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Yes, and the random bounties on my head. Totally mature.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:31:51 ] Longinius Spear > Again, thats not me
    [ 2014.03.03 07:32:04 ] Longinius Spear > So you often run away from challenges that are hard?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:33:00 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Depends on if the risk is worth the reward
    [ 2014.03.03 07:33:20 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > and the effort
    [ 2014.03.03 07:34:11 ] Longinius Spear > Bingo, is the risk worth the reward? is the challenge worth your personal and time investment? And if these are both questions that you yourself can answer, how do does babydady and my alliance factor into them? These are YOUR questions.. not ours..
    [ 2014.03.03 07:34:22 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Which, putting that question into application tonight, I am rethinking about having my PI in that wormhole because obviously that two hours effort getting my indy in there was not worth it, and I'm probably bettwe off moving out of the wormhole to hisec
    [ 2014.03.03 07:34:58 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > so, congratulations, Baby Dady has successfully made me rethink the value of wormhole space
    [ 2014.03.03 07:35:07 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > in a negative way
    [ 2014.03.03 07:35:15 ] Longinius Spear > O no
    [ 2014.03.03 07:35:20 ] Longinius Spear > its not negative
    [ 2014.03.03 07:35:53 ] Longinius Spear > Do you know how steel is made?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:36:52 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > No, I've never bothered googling it. Something about tempering iron with increased heat.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:37:41 ] Longinius Spear > Steel comes from a iron.. and in irons raw form, it can't cut anyone and its weak. It needs to be tempered.. through heat and pressure.. it needs to be smashed.. to become strong. Thats my version of wormhole space. filled with strong people
    [ 2014.03.03 07:38:19 ] Longinius Spear > You say... someone like yourself running away is a negative. I say.. you simply aren't the cream rising to the top
    [ 2014.03.03 07:38:39 ] Longinius Spear > Prove me wrong. Stand up for yourself!.. be strong.. !
    [ 2014.03.03 07:39:09 ] Longinius Spear > THAT is my vision of wormhole space. that is what my goal is...
    [ 2014.03.03 07:39:23 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Just because I'm not a PVPer doesn't make me weak. Pvp isnt my thing and probably never will be as lon g as it remains broken like it is. You really have no business judging people for not being pvpers.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:39:42 ] Longinius Spear > But you are going to run away
    [ 2014.03.03 07:44:11 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Yep. Thank Baby Dady for ruining someone's wormhole experience.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:44:25 ] Longinius Spear > Did you read anything I just said?
    [ 2014.03.03 07:45:22 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Don't preach about how you want ot get more people into wormholes if you're just going to pop them without even offering a fair fight.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:45:26 ] Longinius Spear > We are making you stronger! We are teaching you things! it doesn't result in your little wallet # growing, but we actually care about you!
    [ 2014.03.03 07:45:39 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Yeah, right. Whatever.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:45:58 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Because I totally learned something in the 3 seconds it took him to pop me.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:46:13 ] Longinius Spear > you don't belong in wormhole space
    Now in conclusion me saying he doesn't belong in wormhole space, might have been wrong. But it was very late at night and all his previous comments explained to me that he simply wasn't listening. 
    I can understand being mad that you lost time invested. I get that. But when someone goes out of their way to make you understand where they are coming from and how you are important to them. Then you simply don't listen? That shit pisses me off.

    At the end of the day, EVE is a sandbox, my way of playing isn't any more valid or invalid than the way you play, but we both need to follow the rules of the sandbox. 

    You build sandcastles. My way of playing is kicking over your sandcastle. Those are the rules of the sandbox.  You need to either accept it and mitigate the risk or protect your sandcastle better. Me being there, makes your sandcastle stronger, better and more kick proof. The pressure I add, and Baby Dady adds, makes YOU a better/smarter player. 

    Want to have your sandcastle 100% kick proof? Not going to happen in EVE.

    The idea that any part of EVE and especially wormholes isn't in effect a player vs player environment is crazy. If its not market pvp, its resource pvp or social pvp. When one or more persons chooses different paths, often times, those paths cross and the to the winner goes the spoils.

    EDIT: 3/5 -- From: Tallon Darkwyrm
    Sent: 2014.03.05 20:49
    To: Longinius Spear, 

    You know, I at first thought you were just tired and cran ky when we had our chat, but after having like 15 separate bounties placed on me, all from members of your alliance, your true colors really start to show.
    Your alliance is nothing more than a bunch of internet trolls, in this game for nothing other than to get off on destroying everyone else's game experience.
    You guys really need to grow up. Going on a crusade against someone for the mere reason that they mouthed off to one of your members is really childish. Grow up.

    Seriously. I'm speechless at this point.  Current bounty is at 263,851,236. No idea, I didn't tell the alliance to do that. They just did it. I'm a bad person. Our alliance is bad people. No idea.


  1. Do you often convo people up when something like this happens?

    It was interesting to read, and for a second near the ending I thought you were about to get through to him :-)

    1. Absolutely. BD and my goal isn't to chase people out of wormholes (Less targets that way) we want to make people like this target stronger. Explain where he went wrong, so he can correct his actions in the future. This does two things. 1. Making for harder targets to kill/hunt, more thrilling for us. 2. BD and I stands out more when the targets are elusive.

      I wish I could properly describe the time and patience that goes into a simple gank. Its not like I just log in at 8pm and walk over to the neighboring hole and kill someone at 8:10. People are fucking smart! People clearly don't want to even lose a 5mil ship. By some of the reactions we have seen on this very blog post, may people share the opinion of this subject matter.

      All of these factors make for a hostile environment and educated target base. This is the resistance hunters face, these are the things they need to overcome.

      To summarize, it can be hard to be the bad guy.

  2. I just read this and ended up thinking you're a massive dick that doesnt understand how being on the receiving end of what was essentially ALL gank 0% skill (don't even try to argue otherwise it's clearly not true) isn't fun, and when it gets to this bit, it proved to me you're a giant cock-end:

    "[ 2014.03.03 07:45:26 ] Longinius Spear > We are making you stronger! We are teaching you things! it doesn't result in your little wallet # growing, but we actually care about you!
    [ 2014.03.03 07:45:39 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Yeah, right. Whatever.
    [ 2014.03.03 07:45:58 ] Tallon Darkwyrm > Because I totally learned something in the 3 seconds it took him to pop me."

    Bullshit do you care about him. You care about the green on your killboard, the green in your wallet, or most extremely unlikeliest of all, that moment of adrenaline when you kill someone.

    When that guy says "yeah right I totally learned something", you decide he's not listening and end the conversation, what you've missed is that he thinks your a complete fuckin' idiot who has absolutely no concept of understanding or empathy.

    Being non-consensual PvPd in a game that allows it is, well, part of the game. But to completely miss the point that being unfairly ganked is no fun even in a sandbox is no fun.

    Also you're a twat, really, sincerely, I hope someone repeatedly pods you until you quit forever, and every other fucking lazy idiot like you that's MADE PvP into this gankfest.

    1. Even though this is clearly a troll and by saying "don't even try to argue otherwise it's clearly not true" means you really just want to hear yourself talk the essence of a troll. I chose to post this reply. I'm also a troll at times, it can be fun to vent on people. One of the reasons why I blog is to read my own ramblings. I don't slight you for it.

      I would really like to poke a few holes in your troll, but I'm afraid feeding you would just make you return. But since I actually like talking to strong opinionated people please open a convo with me in game and I'll defend myself correctly. If the conversation is good enough and you go into it with an open mind, I'll post it.

    2. Kalseth here....

      Did you see how long that guy sat at his POCO ? I do my entire PI in the time he sat there. Anyone that does that in WH space might as well have a sign that sayd please kill me and take my corpse.

    3. This is hardly a troll post. Just another person who disagrees with you that you automatically shoot down because of your misguided belief that everyone should enjoy non-con PVP.

  3. That was a dick move. Not the killing and poding him out. That's actually OK, even marginally educational. But it's for deriding the guy for playing the sandbox "the way he wants to play the sandbox". That is not educational. The guy doesn't know how to survive, he'll hardly bother after this kind of conversation and if he does, it will take him time. Maybe you could have explained to him how to survive BD, dunno, point to the website. If your goal really is what you claim it is, write an article on this blog and just paste the link in local next time you kill a noob. Even better, invite him into your corp and teach him. The guys clearly wants to learn, he ventures into wormhole. But for you to talk to him like this in his vulnerable moment. That's crap, IMHO.

    Dunno, will I spoil it if I say that my impression is that you enjoy killing noobs and calling that PvP, to make yourself fell better? This is not actually my opinion of you at all, in fact I do not even know you enough to form an oppinion, other that a couple of (dick) posts here and a few podcast episodes I listened to. Just "devils advocating".

    1. I wonder where this comes from, this opinion that everyone in the world should be nice to one another. That every opinion and way of looking at the world has value. No matter how incorrect or false it may be.

      EVE is a micro sandbox. Real life is a very large sandbox. I realize that EVE is "just a game" but since the similarities between real life and EVE can't be ignored I think it would be adequate to use one to compare to the other.

      "Deriding the guy from playing the sandbox the way he wants to play it" I have news for ya, BD was in his sandbox. BD a factor he chose to ignore and he was punished for it.

      Just because the "guy doesn't know how to survive" isn't my fault. Its not my or BD's responsibility to make sure he does. No one does that in real life. If you fuck up in a big way, you die or go to jail. EVE has schools and parental figures that will hold your hand through your upbringing, just like real life. But often times people don't get a chance to actually learn from an early age. This guy was never taught how to not get killed. He paid for it.

      Between BD and I we kill hundreds of players just like this. Sometimes the people who died look at it like a learning situation. They ask questions, they are engaged with you.. often times dare i say, they learn from the experiences. It happens all the time! That was actually where I was going with person. I wanted to explain where BD and I were coming from, explain my way of life. Clearly his way of life ended with his ship exploding.

      He continued to ignore me as the conversation showed. He had this opinion that I should 'leave him alone" and let him mindlessly grind isk in W-space.

      Fuck that. W-space to BD and I is special because of the danger level. We are not alone in this ideal system.

      I refuse to carry over this PC bull shit from real life that every dip shit that tries should be successful. Everyone who tries ISN"T successful and to enforce that line of thought is to water down people who need to overcome huge challenges to win. Call me a dick for enforcing my line of thought sure, but then you are no better than me by judging my way of playing in the sandbox.

      The point is, in real life.. I'm the nicest guy in the world. I participate in my child's school activities, I'm on the PTA. I pull over for hitch hikers and stranded motorests. I give flowers to my mom. I would never hunt and kill my fellow human for satisfaction. Thats the fantasy.

      But, in EVE and in wormhole space especially... I'm a bad guy. My way is backed up with action. I'm a content creator, even if you never wished content to be brought with you.

      I participate in "The Way of the Gun". You could misread what I typed and think that I consider myself all powerful, far from it. There are MANY in this game I fear, and for good reason. Some other players wield much greater influce than I and don't mind showing it to a smallish upstart like me. I kneel to those guys out of respect.They earned it.

      I DO NOT do what this guy did in the convo with them. The people I fear in this game, tell you how it is just like how I told this guy how it is. Crying about it, that its 'not fair' and 'pointless'... will only make things worse, just like it has with this person.

      Maybe this guy will learn from this, maybe he won't.

  4. I do not want to judge you personally, I am sure you are a nice person. Just saying, if you really want to teach someone, perhaps you have chosen the wrong way. Perhaps. It is however blatantly clear that you picked the wrong time. Guy is hurt, he does not wanna talk about it in a rational way at least. And you find that interesting to post this on yer blog. I think it's not right to say you wanna teach when you are making moves like this.

    Would be nice if he opened a convo with you in the first place and said "teach me" but oh well.

  5. I blame the modern games, specifically MMO's. You know, the ones, instanced to the hell and back, that hold your hand, nurse you, pour rewards upon you. These games designed for certain type of players and they raise even more of this type, that want to play MMO just like a single game, where nobody can affect or interrupt their gameplay. Moreover, they want the game protecting them from the concequences of their own stupidity or ignorance. When such players come to Eve, they expect it to follow the same protective pattern and often rage and whine if someone kill them, or ninjaing their loot, or do whatever else they may treat as interruption of their gameplay. They demand from everyone else to leave them alone and let them enjoy the game the way they like it. Sorry about disappointing you, guys - but Eve is MMO. Not some crap with lobbies and instances, labeled "MMO" for better marketing, but the real one. That actually means other people can affect or interrupt your gameplay, whether you like it or not. You either deal with it, adapt to it, learn from your mistakes and generally get better at the game. Or you can go back to WoW, just like the guy who lost a 44bn CNR funded with PLEX to suicide gank few days ago and was whining about being forced to non-consensual PvP, because in fact he was ignorant moron, has no clue about sandbox and expected the game protecting him and his shiny toy from any threat. I say fuck these people, the more of them gets weed out from Eve, the better. This is natural selection in action.